Shifting Habits with Katie Lain

Voiceover: Welcome to the Options Save Lives weekly live stream, where we spend an hour each week exploring life improving topics through the lens of alcohol recovery, and the Sinclair Method. Every week we take on a new question, topic or common challenge to empower people to either build a better relationship with alcohol, or to eliminate it completely. Episodes are filmed live on Twitch at twitch.tv/cthreefoundation, and the audience is encouraged to ask questions and engage with the host and guests. The Options Save Lives weekly stream is hosted by Executive Director Jenny Williamson, and is produced by the C Three Foundation with the support of R Street Institute and other generous sponsors. For more information about the C Three Foundation, or the Sinclair Method, visit our website at cthreefoundation.org.

Jenny: Hello everybody! How is the sound? Thank you for tuning into the Options Save Lives weekly live stream. As always, I'm Jenny Williamson, Executive Director of the C Three Foundation and your host for the next hour. How is everybody today? We are broadcasting live from the C Three Foundation office here in Fort Myers, Florida. And where is everybody else watching from? Let us know in the chat. If you're a first timer to the stream, welcome. We hope you find some benefit in the next hour and enjoy your time with us.

So this week, we are going to talk about habits and how to shift them for lasting, meaningful results with Katie Lain. Now habits are a huge focus for us, because the Sinclair Method doesn't fix problematic habits. But it does help people reach a place in their recovery journey where they can apply effort to changing those habits that no longer serve them with beneficial, healthier habits. So audience, what habits are you trying to change? Go ahead, put those in the chat area. They don't have to be related to alcohol recovery, but as always, go ahead, put any questions you have along the way into that chat, and we'll go over them at the end, and the livelier the chat and interaction, the more we will all get out of this episode.

So before we go into today's content, let me introduce Katie Lain. Katie's personal success with the Sinclair Method has inspired her to be a lifelong advocate for this Method. She serves as a TSM coach and mentor, guiding others through the process of breaking free from the cycles of alcohol use disorder, so that they can live a happier, healthier and more fulfilling life. TSM is an extremely powerful method for permanently changing drinking habits, and Katie has found that her clients have the greatest success when the Method is combined holistically with the psychological, behavioral and spiritual components that are necessary to truly changing our relationship with alcohol for good. Katie is also the co-founder of the Thrive Alcohol Recovery Community, an online platform that is dedicated to helping people excel on TSM through resources, video courses, inspiration and live support. And I usually joke around and say that Katie is the most well-known TSM advocate that is not named Claudia Christian.

Katie: (Laughing) I've never heard you say that Jenny, that’s funny. Yeah, Claudia is my like, just my, I look up to Claudia a lot for she, her openness and advocacy inspired me to do that as well, because if it wasn't for her I don't think I'd be sitting here today. So yep, can't shut up about the Sinclair Method like Claudia.

Jenny: So, every week we start off with an icebreaker. So, this week Katie, in a perfect fantasy world, where COVID is completely over, where's the first place you'd like to travel?

Katie: Oh gosh. You know, I was just thinking about this the other day. This isn't going to be too exciting for people, but I would really like to go to Mexico for like an extended vacation. I'm in California so that's not far to go, but I just was dreaming about the idea of getting like a vacation house with a pool and staying there for like a couple of months, because it's affordable. I love Mexican food. I love the fruit that you can get down there. Virgin cocktails, I was drinking tons of Virgin Pina Coladas last time I was there, so I think I would just want to head down to Mexico for a little while.

Jenny: That sounds fun. I've only visited on short day cruise excursions, but personally, I think I'd head right back to Vancouver. I was just there in October for 10 days and I fell in love.

Katie: What did you love about it?

Jenny: Everything about it. The diversity. I'm just a city girl at heart. I used to live in Boston. So from the moment I got off the plane in Vancouver, and it was the first time I'd ever actually been there, I just felt at home immediately. It just, something about it was just, it was awesome. And the food. Oh my God, the food in Vancouver. It's everywhere. There's so many options and there's so many healthy options. And it was just, it was amazing. And it's such a walk-able city. Like you could be there and just never need a car, it’s great. So I would go back in a heartbeat.

Katie: Well, I hope you get to go back before too long.

Jenny: So before we dive into the topic, for any viewers who aren't familiar with you, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your background?

Katie: Yes. So hello, everybody. I am someone who struggled with problematic drinking for nearly a decade. I kind of fell into it by accident. When I first started drinking in my early 20s I really didn't care for it, I hardly drank at all. But as I was hanging out with the wrong people, dating the wrong guy, or maybe the right guy, because you know I kind of believe in fate for something like that, but it just kind of led me down the road of really heavy drinking, and that went on for nearly a decade. And I remember after a few years of kind of partying and just thinking that was what I was supposed to do, you know, at that time in my life I tried to take a break from alcohol and it was really, really hard. I was incessantly thinking about it. I was taking like sleeping pills just to go to bed at night so I couldn't, I didn't have to face the alcohol cravings. And it was really hard. I remember I took a week off. I did the week, but as soon as I returned to drinking it was like back to where I was before that week. And so that's when I realized like, oh shoot, this isn't just a phase I'm in. This is actually something that's like, become more, more serious than that.

And so for almost 10 years I was kind of looking for an answer and would try, you know, alcohol free periods and would get time being sober, you know, I got six months one time. But every time I did that, I was mentally preoccupied with alcohol, I was craving alcohol and in the back of my mind I knew that I was gonna drink again one day, it was just like a matter of when. And so part of me, you know, even though my drinking was problematic, I didn't want to give it up for good, like the life without alcohol seemed kind of bleak to me, but I knew I needed to get back in control. And I remember so clearly after one horrible binge one night searching YouTube, like I always was, trying to find people who found answers to their own drinking problems, and like so many people, like millions of others, found Claudia's TEDx talk, and was just like floored that this even existed. And at that time it was harder to get naltrexone so I remember it took me a couple months to finally find a doctor to prescribe it to me. And that started me on the journey of the Sinclair Method, and I was one of those people that I saw an immediate change right away. It wasn't like, you know, overnight fix, you know, took me nine months to reach extinction on this method, but I saw changes right away, like I had an alcohol free day my first week that didn't feel white knuckled. It was a little challenging, because I was kind of pushing myself to see if I could do it, but it wasn't that like white knuckled, totally uncomfortable alcohol free day, ‘cuz I was drinking seven days a week pretty much.

So throughout my journey on the Sinclair Method, you know, I was 100% committed to the Method. I remember I wrote to Claudia, like a month in, just thanking her and she responded right away and reminded me of the golden rule, to never skip naltrexone, and so that really stuck with me. I was like, I'm never going to skip it. I was tempted a few times honestly, but I never did. And after a year on the method I tell people like I accidentally went sober. I quit drinking, because I just kept going longer and longer and longer without drinking. And if someone would have told me a year before that, you know, you're going to stop drinking, I wouldn't have believed them, because I really wanted alcohol in my life. But I, through this Method, I just got to the point that I didn't really care about alcohol anymore, and it was just like this very bizarre experience, but I went four months without drinking and kind of put the stake in the ground and said “Okay, I think I'm going to stop drinking”, and that was over three, it was like three and a half years ago now, but I love that I can entertain the idea of drinking. I still have naltrexone and I’m like, maybe I'll drink one day but yeah, and so I have become a coach and an advocate in the last three and a half years as well, helping others through this journey and last year, at the end of last year, just launched Thrive Alcohol Recovery to support people holistically through the Sinclair Method.

Jenny: And you're coaching all over the place. You're one of our coaches with yoursinclairmethod.com. You're coaching through the new Thrive community and are you still coaching through Embody Daily as well?

Katie: I am but I'm phasing out of that to focus more on the Thrive coaching, but I am still yeah. I love it, honestly, I love being able to connect one on one with people. At the end of all my coaching calls I'm so energized even if it's a tough call, because I just love being able to support people and see the changes that they're seeing themselves through this powerful method.

Jenny: That's wonderful. So in your opinion, what makes habits in general, so difficult to address?

Katie: Oh, jeez. I think it boils down to the fact that our brains are habit learning machines. Like that's how we're made, is to remember habits and to kind of categorize them in a way where they will then play out automatically. And so that's just how our brains are wired. We're wired to learn habits and that can be for good habits like brushing your teeth at night or tying your shoes or taking this one way to work, or it can be for unhelpful habits, like eating a tub of ice cream every night or you know, not working out at all or drinking. And so the thing with habits is that they can be done so automatically, again both good and bad habits. You know, I sometimes, I brush my teeth every single night and sometimes I'm like not even aware that I'm brushing my teeth. It's like just this automatic thing, and I think everyone can relate to that. And so with bad habits or unhelpful habits, it's the same thing, like our drinking routine. I was a nightly bottle of wine kind of drinker, and that was a very ingrained habit, and when I got on the Sinclair Method, it became glaringly obvious to me how much that was a habit, because I just, I didn't realize that it was a habit, but it was like, five o'clock hit, I'd take my pill, I’d drink, five o'clock, take my pill, drink. But I think because, to answer your question, you know, our brains are habit learning machines, and once we do something repeatedly enough times, it gets kind of categorized into the do this automatically category. And so in order to change that, the first step is really conscious awareness of what we want to change, and then taking small actions to make that change consistently. And I think that can be the most challenging part is, first of all, becoming aware of it. A lot of people can be aware that they have unhelpful habits that they need to change, but then it's like okay, well, what do I do from here? I think that can be overwhelming for people. It's like, I know I'm stuck in this habit of drinking every single night, even though I don't really want to, because naltrexone’s working and I want to have an alcohol free day, but like where do I even start? Because even if it's destructive, it's familiar and comfortable and we can kind of stay in that place, you know, longer than we really want to.

Jenny: So, what are some of the most common challenges to shifting one's habits, while on the Sinclair Method.

Katie: I think one that comes to mind for me is the fact that our relationship to alcohol can oftentimes be very complicated, in that we use it as a coping tool. It becomes like a best friend to a lot of us – that's why the term is like changing your relationship with alcohol. It really is this relationship that you have with this substance because it's there for you when times are hard or when times are good or when you're sad or stressed or bored. And we've kind of conditioned ourselves, I guess, to turn to alcohol, because of the endorphin and the pleasure it's getting us. And so one of the hardest things is, you know, like for people for, you know, I'll just speak from my experience. When I was on the Sinclair Method I had a job that I really hated, and it was so stressful and the work environment was super toxic, but I kind of stuck around there because I knew I could show up to work hungover and no one would notice or no one would say anything. And so what happened especially as I saw this as I was on the Sinclair Method, is that I kept drinking most nights to cope with this job that I hated. And so as I was getting going on this method and my desire for drinking was going away, I was still drinking way more than I wanted, because I was using alcohol as a coping tool, because I hated my job. And so that was just like one small piece of me facing the reality that like I need to rebuild my life as someone who does not have alcohol use disorder, or at least like reconstruct it in a different way, which for me meant leaving that job. Which, it's not easy to leave a job like even you know, that's a challenging, daunting, intimidating feat, especially when you have no idea what's next. And so, to go back to your original question, I think that is one of the most complicated things is that how much we rely on alcohol, and have kind of conditioned ourselves to use it to cope with challenging things in life. It's like we need to start to first of all, become aware that we're doing that and then find other ways to cope with those things, or realize those things in our life that might be driving us to continue drinking in that way like my job was, and get honest with ourselves and say, “Okay, well what do I need to do? What's one tiny step I can take toward changing this thing which is feeding me, my habit of over-drinking?”

Jenny: Your previous job sounds like it would fit what I personally dubbed habit fuel. It's that thing that causes you to feed into the habit, because what I'm hearing from your explanation is that the habit that you had of drinking in response to the stress and toxicity of your job was both serving you in one way, while not serving you in another and it was that same thing. And so it's trying, you had to spend some time decoupling what part of that was serving you as taking that stress away, and weigh that against the part that was definitely not serving you, sapping your energy, causing you to feel horrible, diminishing your health on a long term basis and mental health as well, while it was still that just that one habit had good and bad sides to it.

Katie: Exactly.

Jenny: So talk a little bit more about how shifting those habits personally, has helped you go from where you're at, where you were, to where you're at.

Katie: Well one of the biggest things I realized in hindsight, through the Sinclair Method, is how much I was relying on alcohol as a crutch, and what that really means to rely on it as a crutch. I know I'd heard that phrase dozens of times throughout my life, but it didn't really sink in what that really meant. Like alcohol had in a sense, how I like to explain it, is it weakened my ability to cope with life and made me depend upon it for all things. Like I turned to alcohol for fun, for stress, for sadness, anything and everything, I was turning to alcohol for, because I felt like I was not adequate in and of myself to be able to deal with these things. Like I couldn't imagine going through a death in the family without drinking a bottle of whiskey, like that, I just wouldn't survive, basically it's kind of like what I believed, because alcohol had become this crutch for me. And so what I realized and how I like to phrase it with my clients is that, we all have, we're all naturally born with our, this ability to cope with all of the stresses that life throws at us. Like you think back to, for me I thought back to childhood, and like when I would be so mad at my parents for something. How did I get through that as a kid? And granted I was a kid but still it's like okay, I’d be mad for a few hours, go to my room and then like things would blow over and everything would be fine again. But I realized that, you know, we have this coping muscle to be able to cope with life's challenges, and all we need to do in order to kind of get out of that unhelpful cycle of over drinking, is strengthen that muscle, like going to the gym. If you go one time and lift weights, you're not going to really see any difference. You might be a little sore. But the real key to success in building muscle, is to do it over and over and over and again. You don't want to do too much, you don't want to do too little, you want to kind of do just enough to kind of push yourself. And so that's what I have found is like, the sweet spot for people is, we have to start realizing and believing that first of all, we have this coping muscle.

And that's another thing too, like our beliefs and the thoughts that we tell ourselves, like that's where any change really starts in our mind. Like I have clients sometimes say, “I can't imagine not drinking my bottle of wine in the evening, like I just can't imagine it”. And if we're going to change any habits we have to first start there, and like change our thoughts like “Okay, I can imagine, like maybe I'm not there yet, but I can imagine it. Let me think about what that would look like.” So starting with changing like our beliefs and our thoughts around it, but then also taking those small actions toward growing that coping muscle. And so in my case, you know, I was drinking in response to my stress at work, and so what I started to do instead was, you know, my normal routine was five o'clock would hit, I'd pop my naltrexone, go to the store if I needed to buy alcohol, go home, start drinking by six or so. And so what I started doing was I would go to the beach first, I live in a little beach town, or I’d go to the gym, or go do something after work. Fill like that first hour with something else and then if at six o'clock I still wanted to drink, I would take my naltrexone and have my extinction session. So that was one way for me to start doing something consistently that was not too abrupt, but it was me challenging myself a little bit and saying, “Okay, I don't need to drink right away. Let me try going on a walk. Let me try going to the gym. Let me try going to the beach and see how I feel afterward.” And the important thing I think is spending that time in self-inquiry as well and like doing these different things, like for me waiting that extra hour, just how do I feel? How strong is my craving? How do I feel after I go to the gym? Do I still really want alcohol or can I have an alcohol free day today? So I think starting really small is the best place to start and also you know coupling it with that belief that we have this coping muscle and this ability to cope without alcohol. We've just taught ourselves that we need it, but we can we can unlearn that and learn new ways, and consistency is really the key to that.

Jenny: And you mentioned starting in small and manageable ways. So what are some of the strategies that you help people when you're coaching them? What kind of strategies do you have them employ?

Katie: Yeah, it's so personal to the individual, because some people, you know, they might not be able to imagine drinking an hour later. If there's someone who's drinking starting at eight in the morning, for example, or for others, you know, they can't imagine drinking less than they already are. And so it's like meeting somewhere where they're at. And for me, I usually present my clients with like a few options, like okay, here are the avenues we could take to help you, like start to tackle the habit, so which one sounds best to you? And so, just practically speaking, you know, I think a common one that you're aware of as well is like pushing things out an hour like I did with my, instead of taking nal at five I would take it at six and fill that hour doing something that felt really good and was, you know, a way that I thought okay, this might be a way to learn how to cope even though it's not my habit I know that other people cope by going to the gym, so let me try that. So I think that is one way just like delaying our drinking.

Another thing is to start in really small ways to cut back how much you're drinking every night. Like if you're drinking a bottle of wine at night, some clients I have will dump the first glass down the sink just to like not even have it be an option for them. And so they're still drinking the bottle, but it's a little bit less than a bottle. Adding water between your drinks, making sure that you eat a meal. Some of my clients are drinking on an empty stomach, which is like just, like that should be part of the golden rule I think with the Sinclair Method, is like drink with some food in your stomach. But if that's like a starting place for them, they're like I can't think about reducing my drinking. Okay, let's start with you just eating a meal before you start drinking. Really starting and meeting people where they're at so that doesn't feel too overwhelming, because I find if we try to do too much at once, or it feels like too daunting of a task, then they'll just kind of throw in the towel and keep doing what they've done. So I think understanding where someone is at today and then adding in something and then again doing that consistently. If we're working with someone to add in a meal, it's like okay, I want you to have a meal, have a goal to have it every single time you drink. Maybe if you do it five days out of seven, that's pretty darn good. But keep working at that and don't move on to something else until you've mastered that thing. Yeah, does that answer your question?

Jenny: It does. In fact, one of the things that, you know, I also say if you can back up an hour, that's great. But then I also tell people, if an hour sounds overwhelming, what's five minutes? Add five minutes, wait an extra five minutes and if that's comfortable, add an extra five minutes tomorrow. And if that's comfortable, maybe try to add 10 the next day, but it might take you longer to get to that hour delay than someone for whom an hour is not overwhelming, but you'll get there, and you'll do it in a way – if you're, if whatever change you're trying to make instantly produces anxiety before you've even attempted it, it's probably too big.

Katie: Yeah

Jenny: So look for something smaller.

Katie: Agree

Jenny: So you also mentioned earlier about basically the stories we tell ourselves and the way we frame things. So let's talk a little bit about terminology. Maybe it's a bit of semantics, but how the words we use when we're talking about things and thinking about them can either add to or dissipate some of the stigma involved with recovery and helping people shift habits. Because let's face it, how often have we all heard, “well so and so has a bad drinking habit”? when actually it's not that it's a habit itself, it's an addiction. And it might be fueled by habits, it may contain elements of habits, but the actual addiction itself is not a habit. So how can framing alcohol use disorder as a habit in general be discouraging and stigmatic?

Katie: Wait so framing alcohol use disorder as a habit as opposed to like – I just want make sure I understand the question.

Jenny: As opposed to being comprised of both, you know, dependence and elements of habit. When you over arch and say the whole thing, you know, my loved one is drinking out of control, they have a drinking habit. As opposed to recognizing that there is an addictive chemical, neurological dependence also at play.

Katie: Yeah, I think one thing that comes to mind is that if we view it as only a habit, then we are perhaps not taking it as seriously as we could. I think in some sense for people to feel really committed to the Sinclair Method, we have to hit our own personal rock bottom, so to speak, whatever that means. For me it was I almost got a DUI and I was really just kind of fed up with being sick all the time and hungover all the time. My life, like most people didn't know I had a drinking problem, like my life was so pretty together, so it's not like that AA style rock bottom where like you lose everything. But I think for all of us, we kind of have to get to a certain level of like, disgust with ourselves or just being fed up with ourselves to really make this change and be committed to it. I think that a lot of the challenge that people have when they're not fully committed to the Method and not being compliant. is, you know, they're not really at that point of feeling like “Okay, I'm fed up, I need to change” or they're not also clear on the reasons why they want to change, like they're not really visioning the future self that they want to have with less alcohol. But I think if we're only viewing it as a habit, we may not take it as seriously as we could, because that is a kind of benign term, I guess. And, you know, we have to be realistic with the fact that drinking and over drinking can cause all kinds of health issues and negative life consequences. And so I often talk to people like when I'm encouraging them to define their why, or the reasons why that they're doing the Sinclair Method, it's like, sometimes there can be motivators that are driven by fear. For me, it was like fear of a DUI, fear of the fact that my liver was hurting all the time, fear of the fact that I was losing out on my life potential. So those like fear motivators were driving me to stick to the Sinclair Method, but there's also success motivators of like that potential future self and who will I be when I don't have alcohol use disorder anymore? And so, sometimes I think that those fear type motivators can be really helpful and drivers for people, and I don't mean that in a way, like our current treat treatment system that kind of shames people and makes them feel terrible, but just to get real with like the consequences of the actions that we're taking when it comes to our drinking behavior.

Jenny: And you mentioned about, you know, defining the why. So talk a little bit about the difficulty or ease level of changing habits when you're doing something for your own self and your own benefit as opposed to doing it because of outside pressure trying to tell you that you need to make the change.

Katie: Oh, man, that's like a night and day difference. I'm sure you know too Jenny, it's like with anything in life, if someone's trying to coerce us or pressure us into doing something, for me, I want to push back. I want to do it less, and so that is the challenge. And you know, I work with people who are on the Sinclair Method and do a coaching call and the whole family’s there having an intervention, and they're like, they need to get this under control, and the person does not want to be there, you know, and so, it's a night and day difference. And I sometimes tell people who are having trouble with compliance on the method, they're like, “Oh, I just can't stick to it, or I want to, you know, experience alcohol like I used to before now,” and so they're drinking without the pills sometimes. And so if they're not fazed, like from my perspective, they might just not be totally ready yet. And I think that's an opportunity for people then to kind of take a step back and do the reflective work or journaling work of, you know, defining those whys and like - Why do I really want this for myself? What do I have to lose in the next five years or even just one year if this problem stays exactly where it is? Like where will my health, relationships, work, everything, where will it be if I don't change anything? And where will it be if I do? And so, sometimes, you know, if people can’t stay compliant or committed to it, like just get, take a step back, get clear on your why, so that perhaps you can get some clarity and insight as to really why you want to make this change, because obviously you started on the Sinclair Method for a reason, even if someone else was kind of forcing you into it or telling you to do it, perhaps you would still benefit from it. But I think that we definitely have to want this for ourselves, and if someone is trying to pressure us into it, we're not super onboard, I just have so many times I see that not be a sustainable change. Because I mean that’s true in anything in life, you know, if you want to lose weight, you've got to want to lose weight for yourself. If someone's telling you that you're fat, I think I need to lose weight, it's like that's not gonna work so well. So yeah.

Jenny: Yeah, in our, in a previous episode this season, I was equating it with, one of my goals is to become more active and exercise more for just better overall fitness. And so I took a moment to figure out what was standing in the way between me knowing that I want to do this, I want these benefits, but not following through. And I came to the horrifying conclusion that I want the health benefits of exercise, but I just don't like to exercise, and I just don't want to do it. And I feel like there's a parallel there for a lot of people who are not quite ready to actively go into doing what they need to do for alcohol recovery and the Sinclair Method. It's like, you know there's an issue. You know there's something going on. You know the benefits of cutting back. You don't need to be told that it's good for you. But when it comes right down to it, yeah, I just don't want to do it. And so there's that getting, there's that place where you come to where it's like, okay, so how do I get those benefits then? And is that where, in your opinion, you would say that understanding what benefits your current habits are giving you can be helpful, so that then you can look and find other ways to fill the benefits of what it's doing. As opposed to just simply saying, “Okay, there's this myopic view of this one thing is, is going to be the answer,” and you can start broadening.

Katie: Absolutely, and you're just making me recall back to like, something I did a lot on the Sinclair Method that really helped me to get more alcohol free days. And that was me, instead of just like, having an urge to drink and saying “Okay, I'm going to drink, take my pill and drink,” I would, the longer I was on it – this took, this was probably like four or five months in, because I was kind of stuck in like drinking four days a week I think at that time, and I wanted to cut back more – I started to ask myself “What need do I have that I'm turning to alcohol to meet, and how else can I meet this need?” And I gave myself any and all other options as long as it did not include alcohol. So I remember clearly one Saturday, I was a daily drinker on Saturdays, I was gonna drink and I was like, “What do I want to do? What need do I have? Why do I want to drink?” and I was like, “well, maybe instead I'll go home and watch some movies, get some junk food at the store, just kind of veg out all day.” Like I sensed that the need that I had was that I didn't want to have any responsibilities, I wanted to just kind of check out, turn off my phone and just kind of veg out and indulge after a long work week. And so that's what I did, and that was my first alcohol free Saturday and it was just amazing to see, like even though I was indulging in junk food and you know that's not ideal, for me that was like a step down from alcohol. And I realized and got clarity on that the need I had that I wanted to use alcohol for, was just to kind of numb out and escape and veg, but I could do that by watching a movie and kind of going into a different reality and eating indulgent food. And so that was like a really eye opening experience for me, and I started to do that on a more regular basis. Like what need do I have right now? and sometimes I just really did want to drink, and so I'd let myself drink. But the more I would challenge that and question that and just give myself a chance to try to meet that need in another way, the more I was able to get alcohol free days.

One thing that I often tell people is like you know, the five o'clock hour, the witching hour is common for a lot of people, and that's their drinking habit. So at five o'clock, I would start craving alcohol and what I started to do instead is I would fill a really fancy wine glass with sparkling water and drink that first, to see okay, maybe let's see if this kind of kills the urge and then if I still want to drink I'll drink afterwards. But over time, slowly but surely, I replaced that five o'clock craving with sparkling water and now at five o'clock I crave that sparkling water. So that's just demonstrates like how our brains learn these habits and we're like consistent at doing it. So I just wanted to share that.

Jenny: And I love where you're actually going with this and I want to continue on this particular vein of thought here. So what you're actually talking about is you didn't so much change your habit, you replaced it with something that served you better. So can you talk about how, from a mental standpoint from trying to battle with something that you want to change as opposed to saying, “Okay, well let me just replace that with something else”, like how much easier does replacing with a new habit…how much easier is that then trying to fix something and make changes in an existing habit?

Katie: Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't quite thought about it in that way. But yeah, you're right. It was about replacing the alcohol was something else, and I think that was true for my whole time on the Sinclair Method. It wasn't about, I have a craving so I'm not going to drink. It's like if I have a craving, I'm going to try out something else in its place, and I was big, and I tell my clients this a lot, I was big on rewarding myself, like I would go over the top with like rewarding myself. I would book massages. I would plan an alcohol free day and I'd have a massage planned or I'd have a movie planned or something really, really fun that made me feel nourished and made me feel good and allowed me to experience pleasure in life from things other than alcohol. I think that's so crucial to changing habits is, and again how our brains are wired to learn how, they're wired to remember things that give us pleasure, whether that's food, alcohol, sex, laughter, dancing, it just our brains are wired to remember and form habits in that way. So alcohol has been very pleasurable for us, so if we are approaching it and like I think the old way of doing things is approaching it like, white knuckling, resist that urge, but then no one's putting in like something else that's also really pleasurable, so we just have this void that we need to fill.

And so I think that is such a crucial part to changing our habits is, like you said, like replacing it, like if you're always turning to alcohol in the evenings for example, it's like, what else can you do instead to just give it a try? And the beauty of the Sinclair Method, and what I always told myself was, I'll do this for an hour and if I still want to drink, then I'll take my naltrexone and drink. And what I found is that yeah, sometimes I would still take my naltrexone and drink, but other times I would see myself do these new things that met that need that I thought only alcohol could meet. So yeah, it is really important and it makes it easier to start with, like slowly replacing things and just gently challenging ourselves, not in a way that feels forced, like I've seen some people get going on the Sinclair Method and they're like, should I do seven days alcohol free to get started? And of course, like, maybe that would help some people, I don't know. But we're in that kind of mentality of like, we've got to make this like grand gesture type of change in order to see results, but I think it's kind of the opposite, because the way this Method works is that you know, it's this gradual thing where we're doing what we've always done, but kind of tricking our brain because we're not liking it as much so. Yeah.

Jenny: And you said one particular word that I want to zero in on several times in that answer, and that was the word “plan.” Talk a little bit about how having a plan and making a plan can make changing those habits a little bit easier.

Katie: Yes, yes. And I know, this is just, I'm hearing people in my head that I've talked to before, they're like, I want to drink whenever I want to drink like, drinking can be a very spontaneous thing, so planning can feel very like Type A, like I don't want to have to plan my drinking like it's, you know. But to your point, like planning is so important. Even just, you know, planning out, if we're going to drink tonight, planning out our drinking session, and what I mean by that is kind of envisioning how it's going to go. Because I think if we're not even doing that, if we're just kind of doing what we've always done and you know, drinking mindlessly instead of mindfully, it's hard to, it can be difficult to kind of shift the habit and people get stuck in that pattern of habitual drinking. And so, planning can look like a lot of different things, one of which is, as I was mentioning, like the visioning of how the evening drinking session is going to go. So, in my case, I would be at work and I'd start thinking about “Am I going to drink tonight? Am I not?” And if I was I'd be like, okay, I have that bottle of wine at home. I'll drink no more than three glasses. I'll measure them out. I'll eat a meal and I'll have water between my drinks. Like that was kind of my vision of how it was going to go. Sometimes it would go that way, sometimes it wouldn't. But at least I was becoming consciously aware of like, how do I want this night to go? How do I want the drinking session to go? So that's one example of it.

Another one that is really helpful for people is planning those alcohol free days. For me I really started to look forward to my alcohol free days, because it would mean I was going to do something really fun and rewarding, or like if I had three alcohol free days in a row I would get a massage, a pedicure. I was like indulging in these things because I was saving so much money from not drinking that like I had a little extra money to spend on self-care things. And so planning it really, it made it fun for me and I was kind of doing things in life that I hadn't done in a long time. Like I would do silly things like I'm going to take myself out to ice cream and like go see a movie, a matinee like before COVID, so might be a little bit more challenging now, but it was just really fun to do those like innocent, playful things that like I feel like I had forgotten in my alcohol use disorder. Like I thought I could only have fun while I was drinking and so I kind of had to relearn how to be playful and fun without alcohol, but I was doing it in such a way that almost took me back to my childhood. It was like going out to ice cream and a movie, like who doesn't want to do that?

Jenny: Okay, count me in. So, now one of the habits that unfortunately I've seen people over the years develop is, “Okay, I'm going to be fastidious with taking my medication at the exact same time every day, and then drinking at the exact same time every day.” Which can help people in the beginning but then turn into a problematic issue later on, where now they've created a habit of drinking much less but at the same time and there's a plateau. So I'm sure you've probably seen this as well, because it can be common. How do you advise people who have accidentally created a TSM habit that plateaus them to shake that up and continue making progress towards their goals?

Katie: Yeah, and I think where I see that be challenging for people is like the daily drinkers. Those people that we see who have been on it for six months, nine months, a year and they haven't had any alcohol free days, or maybe they've had one or two alcohol free days and they're kind of stuck in this habit now of yes, they're taking naltrexone, but they're taking naltrexone and drinking every night. So they've kind of formed this new habit and what I've seen work really well for these people is getting alcohol free periods of time. I see it over and over and over again, where they've been on this method long enough that you know, their brain is probably at extinction or close to it, because they've had so many drinking sessions on the naltrexone. But the thought of the alcohol free day or the first alcohol every day can be a little bit daunting and I think that's because in the past perhaps alcohol free days have been really, really hard and white knuckled and so it's like we, and I hear this from people a lot. They're like “Oh, that was actually easier than I thought it was going to be.” We kind of make this big deal out of like oh my gosh, what’s one alcohol free day even look like, and so we don't really move towards making that a goal for ourselves. But I think in most cases like getting that alcohol free period of time can be super helpful for these people, and knowing that, you know, it's probably not going to be as hard as you thought it would be, because of all the work that you've done taking naltrexone compliantly and drinking on it over you know, many months. And I've seen that over and over again with people who've just taken their own initiative to take a week off or do a 30-day challenge. I have an interview on my YouTube channel by a gal Melissa. She was on it for nine months, had like a couple alcohol free days and decided like okay, I'm gonna do a 30-day challenge and just reset my habits and after that she never returned to drinking again, and she was surprised by that herself. But that period of time just allowed her to kind of reset her habits and realize that she was actually already at extinction, but she was just continuing to drink. And so to get out of that I think, like for those people like they are ready for alcohol free days if they've been on it for nine months and again, that's where planning can come in and set a day on the calendar. Plan the whole day out. Make it super awesome even if that means you buy junk food at the store and you're watching movies all day, but you're not going to drink alcoholic, just do something else. And if that day comes around and it's too intimidating, put it out a little bit more, but just put it on the calendar and keep planning for it. Because if you're not getting that naltrexone out of your system and allowing your brain to experience endorphins from other pleasures, there's no opportunity for you to learn new habits, and so I think that that is just a really important thing to do, to like rip the Band-Aid off, get that alcohol free day and you might be surprised how easy it is and how fun it is. I hear that all the time from people.

Jenny: And I hear you keep saying, and sometimes that worked and sometimes it didn't, and sometimes my plans came through and sometimes they didn't. Talk about the power of not shaming yourself on those days when you make the plan, and you know what? You had a plan not to drink tonight but in the end you decided to drink compliantly anyway. Talk about how powerful that is to not beat yourself up.

Katie: Oh my gosh. It's like a game changer. I feel like the Sinclair Method, it allowed me to for the first time in my life to be like, kind to myself with regards to my drinking, because I think anyone out there can relate. It's like we beat ourselves up so much when we over drink. Why did I do that last night? What was I thinking? I said I was going to do this, but I did that. And so that talking about like habit, like habit of thought. We can be so in this habit of thought of just immediately turning on ourselves and beating ourselves up, and I think that as we get going on this method, we really need to learn how to be our own inner coach, and we have the power to interrupt those thoughts and redirect them. And, you know, the more we do that again with that consistently, if you hear this thought coming up that's beating you up, like oh, you drank tonight, you said you weren't going to, you can oh, I'm gonna reject that thought or I'm just gonna let that thought go and I'm gonna instead turn it around and realize, hey, I had a compliant drinking session. I know that if I drink on the naltrexone, I'm working toward extinction. And so let me focus on another day where I can have an alcohol free day. We really have to get out of that thought habit of beating ourselves up and learn how to be kind to ourselves, realizing that this is a healing journey, and that by being kind to ourselves, it's only going to help us. I once heard, I think it was a TED talk, and someone was saying, “Imagine if all of the thoughts running through your head were on a loudspeaker for everyone to hear, like, how would that make you feel?” And that like sunk into me. I was like, Ooh, that would not be good. And so I think, you know, realize that our patterns of thoughts can be habitual themselves, and we can choose what we think. I'm not saying it's easy to do, but again, with that consistency it’s really helpful. And I find that feeding our minds every day with something uplifting and positive, whether that's a YouTube talk or a meditation or just whatever inspires you, music, that can really be helpful because like garbage in, garbage out. If we’re like listening to negativity on the news or, you know, watching really dark shows or something, that's just like so much negativity and we're not putting anything positive in, it's easy for our mind to just kind of be on this loop of negativity. So for me starting my day and ending my day with something really uplifting and positive, even just for five minutes, helps me to be on a more uplifting and positive mindset. And I also recommend Brené Brown’s books. I remember, as I was in this process of changing my thought pattern, like her books really helped on healing shame and becoming more vulnerable and seeing that for what it is. Like her books were really helpful to me.

Jenny: A couple of comments from our chat, and this is a great example of how a small change made a huge difference. Nat says, I changed where I would eat my dinner and what time I would eat it, because alcohol with dinner was always a thing. So moving dinner from five to six, and eating it at a table rather than just sitting on the couch helped me to shift the way I was handling my evening meals, and therefore starting to drink in the evening.

Katie: That's great Nat. That is a perfect example. And it reminds me too of environment, how powerful that is, because I was just on a coaching call with a client. He was saying he happened to move apartments when he started TSM. And he's like, “I just don't have the same like desire to drink like I was in my old place, because I'm not in the same room or the same chair, like it's just a different place.” So he was reflecting on how much his environment changed and improve that, and I've heard that from others as well. And so Nat’s example is just a perfect one, like even switching from the couch to the table like seems so insignificant, but it really does make those differences, and I know she's doing so well on the Sinclair Method, no longer drinking, I saw the post on Instagram.

Jenny: Yeah, and that's, I think that's something that people often overlook is, you mentioned earlier people have this idea that you have to make this grand gesture for change to occur, but yet it's often those subtle, small, yet meaningful things that are not overwhelming that you add in slowly, and then they build up to taking you to where you want to be in changing a habit.

Katie: So well said Jenny, and I think the challenge is like those are so easy to do, but they're also so easy to overlook. It's like oh, it's not gonna be a big deal if I just drink like I normally do, but it's like, actually, that's where the difference is made, is like whether or not you make those small changes. I also read this book recently called The Slight Edge and that's his whole philosophy. It’s like, these tiny things, they're really easy to do, but they're really easy not to do, and that's the difference between success and failure. It's true. And I actually, in my small town, I've ran into a couple of people who've known me from my YouTube channel, and that was what one woman said. She reached extinction, was doing so, so well, and then she stopped taking naltrexone and told herself she could drink like normal, and she relearned it over time, and she told me that “I realized it's in those tiny decisions that we make every single day that like, create our lives and create who we are.” So her small decision just said, “Oh, I don't need to take naltrexone. I'm good now,” it's brought her back to square one.

Jenny: Yeah, it's funny because I watch a lot of sci-fi, sci-fi fantasy shows, and so there's always an element of time travel and so many things. And the concept of time travel is, if you go back in time, the teeniest, tiniest little change is going to cause this massive ripple effect. So we have it ingrained that our actions, if we were to be in the past, would cause enormous change. And yet we tend to fail to remember that we can make those actions now in the present to dramatically change our future.

Katie: Exactly. And if that's just like a slight shift in our perspective and our philosophy on life, like, oh, it's not going to be a big deal if I chart my drinks tonight or not, or if I wait 45 minutes instead of an hour for the naltrexone like, yeah, it might not be a big deal and you might not see any difference today or tomorrow or next week. But if those types of decisions add up over months or years, like where is that going to leave you? And so I think it's so important for us to really value those tiny decisions and making the decision that as James Clear says in his book Atomic Habits, we're casting a vote for our future self so like moment to moment, is this a vote for my future self and who I want to be? Or is this a vote for my current and past self and who I don't want to be? And so asking ourselves those questions all the time, this can really help to shape our behavior in the moment.

Jenny: So we are, believe it or not, we are closing out and almost out of time. Audience, you guys have been wonderful as always, and thank you for spending the last almost hour with us. And do you guys feel inspired or empowered to take on a habit that no longer benefits you? If so, go ahead and put that in the chat. Katie, why don't you take a few moments to say any last words to the audience, and let people know how your new community, Thrive, can actually help people address their habits on the Sinclair Method.

Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks so much for being here everyone. And I just want to say if you're watching this and you were someone who is struggling with habit change on the Sinclair Method, I just think that you know, realizing that it first starts in your mind, and that starting really small and just doing one tiny thing consistently can really, really serve you. Like just talking to a client who was having trouble with compliancy, like she wasn't waiting the full hour. And I said, we're not going to focus on drink reduction, we're not going to focus on anything else, we're going to focus the next two weeks on you just being compliant. That's your one goal. And so I think starting with something that seems really, really small, is a great place to start. So if you're challenged with habits, just start with something tiny that you can do over and over again.

And yeah, we created Thrive to really help people thrive with the Sinclair Method. You know, I feel so grateful for my own experience, and having served as a coach for the last three plus years or more, I've learned so, so much working with one on one with people and just interacting with people in the communities, that I really wanted to create a comprehensive program that would be a self-paced program that would guide anyone through the Sinclair Method, step by step. I remember, you and I both know David Belenky. He's an amazing TSM person and he told me once years ago that he came from an AA background and he's like, there's no step by step protocol for the Sinclair Method. Like I know I take the pill but like, what else do I do, and so that always stuck with me and I felt that way to, working with clients. It's like I didn't have that like step by step guidance for them, unless we were meeting one on one every week. And so I wanted to build something that would provide that guidance for anyone, whether they're brand new on the Method or if they've been on it for six months and they just need support, where they can come and plug into resources and exercises, courses and personal support and also the private community of others. So that's why we created it and really excited to be able to offer it and, you know, just excited for Sinclair Method to take on, you know, more people to become aware of this method because it's so life changing. I'm sure you hear it every day. I hear it every day. It's like why didn't I know about this before? Everyone I meet they stumble upon it through Claudia's video or through the documentary or through their friend that mentioned it. It's just, it's funny in that way. But yeah, really, this is my, like Claudia, like I've gotten bit by the Sinclair Method bug. This feels like my life calling, so I'm excited to be able to help people through this Method.

Jenny: Awesome. Well, audience, let's fill the chat area with some gratitude for Katie. Katie is actually going to be back with us on March 18, so go ahead and save the date. Mark those calendars now. If you came in late and you missed part of the discussion, or if you want to share, watch the stream again, we will have today's video up on our website, YouTube, Vimeo, Anchor and Spotify, hopefully by the end of today. And as soon as we're able to we'll get those transcripts and closed captioning added as well.

Next week, we're going to be joined by Brian Anderson from the YouTube channel, The Sober Barkeep. It's a non-alcoholic beer and spirits review series, and we are going to talk all about non-alcoholic beverages, so start thinking of those questions now. If you found value in this broadcast, we hope you'll hit the donate button in our profile or head to our website and make a donation at cthreefoundation.org/donate. You can also follow our channel to get broadcast alerts and subscribe to our channel to go ad free and get some bonus emoji to use. If you're an Amazon Prime member, you can actually subscribe for free. So you can also, through Twitch, send gift subscriptions to other viewers, cheer, drop bits, host our channel, all of the above. So if you'd like to suggest a guest or a topic for a future broadcast, we've got a link to a Google form that's been dropping in the chat and is also available on our main Schedule page on the website.

If you're on the Sinclair Method, and you're looking for more peer support, or you just want to join the C Three Foundation community, we've got you covered with groups on Facebook, Discord, and the Options Save Lives forum and of course I'll have a link to the Thrive community with this episode on our website as well. So that's it for today everybody. Have a wonderful weekend. Be gentle with yourself and with others. And we will see you right here on Friday next week. Same time, same station. Thanks guys.

Voiceover: Welcome You've been watching the Options Save Lives weekly live stream hosted by Executive Director Jenny Williamson, and produced by the C Three Foundation with the support of R Street Institute and other generous supporters. For more information about the C Three Foundation or the Sinclair Method, visit our website at cthreefoundation.org. If you have a question you want answered live on air, to make guest suggestions, or to support the show, let us know. You can reach us through our website, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram or on Discord. Join us each week as we continue to discuss more ways to help you build a better relationship with alcohol, or to eliminate it completely. Because recovery from alcohol use disorder is not a one size fits all process. Options are available and Options Save Lives.